78. In the process of making a Financial U-turn!
PODCAST TRANSCRIPT: Episode 78 - Mar 1, 2022
Straight out of the gate I can tell you that this was one of the hardest podcasts I’ve ever written and created. The reason is that sometimes I meet someone who is newer to personal finance and when they find it they go all in and have a lot of fresh perspectives to share. Nic, who is 42 years old, was one of these people.
Her first ever email to me went like this:
Ruth, I have recently become absolutely obsessed with your Podcasts, your philosophies and the need to manage my money and save for my future. I knew I didn't want to work forever but just didn't know how to go about getting there. The way I was going I would have potentially got there based purely on good luck. Then again if luck ran out…
I am one of those people who earn a tonne of money and get nowhere fast.
She said that she was an educated person, reasonably intelligent and yet SO DUMB with finances.
This podcast is a good one for showing the progression of thoughts and behavours over time.
When the two of us got together, our biggest challenge was time. From our emails, we both deduced that talking a lot was a skill set we shared, so we set ourselves a three hour deadline and even once that ended, the information kept coming to me via email.
So, my biggest challenge has been condensing it down into this podcast today.
But, I think I’ve cracked it and I’m delighted to share the journey of this high octane professional wahine.
Nic’s Mum was a nurse by profession and raised two tamarki, Nic and her younger brother. She became a single parent and moved to the Waikato a little closer to Nics grandparents. Until she could get back on her feet she needed what was called the DPB, or the domestic purposes benefit to get by. Nic’s Mum rented cheap farmhouses and looking back she now realises that there was very little money around. In those early years she said her Mum might have been down, and she certainly struggled, but she was not out.
Although she suspects her Mum went without, Nic never felt she did. She said it was a childhood that dreams were made of. Lots of on farm adventures with local kids, making huts, fishing for eels and swimming until dark or until her Mum called her home. She went to the local rural school, her Mum sewed her clothes and served up healthy cheap, in season food helped in part with support from her grandparents with veges from their garden and meat from animals they had reared.
When Nic started school her Mum began a seven year process of training by correspondence to be an accountant, fitting in study around kids and working if and when she could, eventually moving into full time work in accountancy when Nic was about 15. Looking back Nic is immensely proud of her Mum for doing this, it would not have been easy but it set her and her brother up for a financially safe life and future.
Eventually, through hard work and determination, and sadly via an inheritance left when her Mums parents passed away far too early, when Nic was just 12, Nics Mum was able to buy her own home, their first family home. Just six years ago she paid it off in full, a huge undertaking and achievement.
Nic bought her first 10 speed bike and stereo from money saved up from collecting tonnes of pinecones that she then sold at the local petrol station. Basically, if she wanted something she learned early on that she had to go to work to earn the money to buy it.
From the age of 15 she worked at her local hospital helping to serve food to patients, then her local RSA, then later, to make some money before she started University, she worked on a factory line eight hours a day producing chemical cleaners. All minimum wage stuff.
Although she hated that job, she loved the owners of the company. Her employer was a true entrepreneur, going on to grow their fledgling business and sell it for millions. They also said to her that if she went to University and did a business degree, or HR, they would employ her. Nic had other ideas. She was an excellent school student with a passion for animals and there was no doubt in her mind that she would become a vet one day.
So, apart from the bike and stereo, what did she do with all of this money earned throughout her school years? She spent it all. On a car, on petrol, on things she wanted, on trips to Hamilton and the Mount, concerts, summer fun, movies, food and more food!
By the time she went to University all she had was maybe $2,000 in the bank, a drop in the ocean compared to what she had earned and what she would need. Nic said that there was never a question of how she was going to fund University – she was always going to loan the lot! She qualified for a student allowance for her first two years of study which helped, but for her, it was not enough. She ticked up all her fees and accommodation (including a year in a hall of residence) on a student loan.
Because her Mum had spent so long on her own financial journey, she did manage to buy a cheap house in the town Nic was studying in that Nic and her friends rented. Nic said she was terrible at paying rent. Thankfully her flatmates were better.
Nics Mum sold this house after six years, making just a little on the sale. Today she is in her own home, has KiwiSaver to top up her pension, but simply loves her four day a week job too much to quit. Which sounds perfect to me and it was good to hear that after a bumpy start she has both stability and happiness.
While at University, Nic’s kindly bank offered her an overdraft. Yes please she said, I’ll take that! They gave her a $500 overdraft, which over time crept up to $1,500. Plus she borrowed $1,000 each year for course related costs – Absolutely, let’s be having you was her thinking on that debt.
She did manage to collect two scholarships during her time at University, totalling about $5,000, and when I asked where that went she said it just all got spent on her car, the pub and good times with friends.
She failed to make it into vet school in the first six month intake, so changed course and set about completing a different degree. All up she was at University for three and a half years and completed a Bachelor of Applied Science in Agriculture. Her plan was to reapply to vet school at the end of her degree but when that time rolled around the cost and length of time it would take to complete Vet School meant that it was no longer the path she wanted to take.
While she studied she also picked up part time work at University doing various jobs. Nic was not afraid of hard work. If she needed an injection of money, she would go to Student Job Search, get a job, smash out the work, get paid and then you guessed it – spend all the money!
She did eventually get a steady gig working 10 hours a week as a note taker at University. And also working at a petrol station on weekends, but again, she just spent all of the money she earned. When the holidays came around, she worked and saved up a little money to take back to University, which she subsequently spent.
There was no faulting her great work ethic and her ability to keep her grades high. But all that mahi did nothing to teach her how to get her money working for her, instead of her working for it. She was stuck in the cycle that far too many of us find ourselves in: Work, earn, spend, repeat..
Her strength was also her weakness. Her undoing she said was that she was never afraid to work hard, so if she ran out of money, she just picked up more work. She was never broke, it was just that whatever she earned she spent. She was always back at square one with an empty bank account. Which would prompt her to find more work.
She remembered that she rang her mum for money one time when she was at University. She wanted to attend a big party that she had to buy a ticket for. Mum said no. So Nic biked to student job search and signed up to an 8 hour gardening job, starting the next day. She biked across town for an 8am start. It turned out to be the worst garden she has ever seen. She made $120 cash, plus unlimited cool lemonade while she worked. By 4pm she was knackered and couldn’t bike home, so her flatmate collected her. She had a shower, then promptly fell asleep and slept through the party. Not only that, her Mum rang the next day to say she had put the money she originally asked for in her account! So, we can’t dispute the fact this girl knows how to work.
Nic left University in June 2001, with a student debt of about $38,000, which was a lot back then. She had no money, but an evolving interest in the dairy industry and Bachelor of Applied Science in Agriculture which she held in high regard. She set out to gain some practical experience in that field.
She returned home, moved in with her Mum and spent the summer working hard, moving into the area of relief milking, which was quite well paid. She was able to earn between $50-$75 a milking and she did two milkings a day. As used to be quite common, she was often paid in cash, meaning that she avoided paying tax. Which is illegal. All income earned must be declared, but that was just the way things were for her at the time. There were perks to the job too such as free petrol given by generous employers.
Her costs were minimal, with just the tiniest bit of board being paid to her Mum.
What earning money without the IRD knowing also means is that student loan repayments were never automatically deducted from her income, as she appeared not to have any. Hindsight and new knowledge has now helped her realise that this didn’t really help her any. A lot of money flowed through her hands but she paid nothing off her student loan, and these were the days when student debt was not interest free. So, her debt increased.
As her skills improved and she was seen as a capable and trusted worker, the milking gigs got even better. She took on sole charge jobs staying in her employer’s houses while they were away, eating their food, and using their fuel. In turn she fed their pets, mowed their lawns and tended their gardens and it meant no overhead costs for Nic!
These jobs would be for about 10 days at a time and she would walk away with up to $1,500 cash in the hand.
She continued to spend everything she earned and had nothing to show for it.
After the summer finished her Mum politely suggested Nic look for a different job in the agricultural field, one that would put her degree and intellect to good use. She secured a role in Taranaki with a salary of $28,000. This puts her $38,000 student debt into a little more context. On that salary, with 10% deductions it would take over 13 years to pay off. Also, her pay cheque would be 10% less each week because of it.
After boarding with an elderly couple for a few months (a surprisingly common thing to do at that time if you were moving to a new town) she rented a farmhouse for $100 a week and got a couple of flat mates in.
It was at this time Nic got a little alarmed that her student loan balance was actually increasing. The Nic of today said that she doesn’t believe that we focus enough on that student loan debt hanging around for so long. It is something your school careers advisor is unlikely to tell you. Indeed I know a number of people who are still paying it off 25 years after leaving University.
Ex students also tend not to bank on life happening to them either. With each passing year more things pull on the money we make meaning that even if we wanted to, it becomes harder to find the extra money to pay off student debt. Nic was having the required 10% deducted from her salary (it is now 12%), yet her debt was still getting bigger, which she didn’t like. So for a while she forfeited even more of her meagre take home pay and topped up those compulsory payments to hold the balance at $38,000. Then, when the government changed the rules and stopped charging interest on student loans, she stopped those extra payments. In her mind there was no need to bother anymore. Which is the attitude I generally hear today.
It is always in the back of my mind that any government could easily reinstate those interest payments, which is why I bang on about just paying back the money you borrowed and getting on with life.
Her new job had grueling hours, but was a lot of fun. She got a couple of small pay increases and some overtime payments which bumped her income up around $32,000.
2002 was a good year, she met her life partner Frank (which is not his real name) and she also moved to a different company in Taranaki, still in the agriculture industry but in the specialized area of health and safety. So, that old boss was right to see where her talents lay, all those years ago. She remains with that company today. Her starting salary was $45,000, plus a company car. Since that time she has had the use of a company vehicle, a huge annual benefit to any employee. 20 years of not owning, running or maintaining a vehicle, such a huge financial win.
The company also had and still has a bonus scheme which, provided she meets the criteria set, amounts to another $3,000 - $5,000 annually.
In her notes to me she said that she is pretty sure she will stay with this company forever, if they will have her. She gets a huge amount of job satisfaction and works with pride and passion every single day. It’s hard to find the perfect job and its a real pleasure to speak with someone who clearly has.
In 2007, aged about 27, her Mum suggested that since Nic was clearly becoming very settled in Taranaki, and because housing was cheap in the area she was living, that she should buy a house.
Her partner was born under Mount Taranaki and was simply not interested in living anywhere else and so she accepted the fact that this was to be home for the rest of my life.
This was to be Nics house and she had no deposit and no idea, so off house hunting they went regardless. They found one that needed some work for $145,000. As luck would have it, Frank is a builder. Because she had no deposit, because she still spent every single dollar she earned, her Mum went guarantor for her, the only way that the bank could allow her to purchase it. The lending was based on her income, and was in both her and her mothers names.
She borrowed $150,000, more than the asking price. She “had to” she said, because without it she couldn’t afford the lawyers fees or any of the money for renovations. I would have argued that she couldn’t afford a house full stop, but hey, I’m not a bank manager.
I wondered why, given they had been together for almost five years by now that Frank was not part of this purchase.
She didn’t elaborate much, except to say that early on in their relationship he proved, she said, that he could not be trusted at all when it came to money. He has a wide range of talents, money handling is not one of them it seems. To be fair to Frank, it was not exactly her talent either back then. Given he is less interested anyway, over time she has taken full control, which in turn has enabled his lack of interest, something they are both addressing now.
Jumping to today, things are changing and she said its not like he is unaware of personal finances. Although their money remains separate, they talk about interest rates, mortgage payoff dates, bank balances, it’s just that she has always done everything and he doesn’t need to. It is just an observation of mine, but I’m not sure that this is entirely healthy over time and I think Nic sees that too. The couples I see who truly win with money have a more united focus, shared goals and shared bank account structure.
I wondered if at the time of purchase that student debt of $38,000 affected her ability to borrow more money? No. She said she was a disaster with money, and with no savings track record and no deposit she still got a mortgage. Still got a house.
Most things you can save up for just by working a little harder, for a short period of time. That had always worked for Nic in the past. But when on the back of a conversation from your Mum you decide to go big and buy a home, then with no time to save money for a deposit, you “have to”, as an adult, financially lean on your Mum, also putting her financial life in jeapordy I should point out. If Nic couldn't pay her mortgage, it would be her Mum that they turned to for payment. Nic’s lack of knowledge about money just meant that borrowing money was the first resort, not the last. And because there was very little pain caused by this, these decisions start to compound and grow. Before you know it you are living pay cheque to pay cheque.
The houses might have been cheaper, but the kicker was interest rates. She had a two year fixed mortgage at 9.6%. And here comes one of Nic’s biggest regrets. For the first four years they paid interest only on their mortgage, meaning that they never bought back a single brick from the bank. At the end of the term they owed the same as what they borrowed, but had paid out thousands in interest to the bank. In a rising housing market you can get away with this as you can sell the home for more than what you paid, but that thought was not even on her mind.
Why?
Because, every Kiwi likes a bit of DIY and in Nic’s case, any spare cash they could find went towards renovations in that time.
She also mentioned something to me that I often hear. Buying a house is a bit of a cure all for a spender. Buying a house meant that they were now forced to make mortgage payments and she saw this, as many do, as enforced savings. So, in a roundabout way, she was for the first time, now saving money. It’s quirky math. And personally, I don’t really buy it, this carrot and stick approach to saving.
When she reflects on this period, things were going great for them. Both of them were working full time and the renovations were coming along, albeit slowly. In 2009 they decided they would like a family and she quickly became pregnant. She had always had it in her mind that she wanted to have finished having children by the time she was 30.
Welcoming any child into your whānau is a wild ride and a life altering experience and their first child, born in 2009 was just that. Just two months after they were born they were diagnosed with a life threatening illness that would be with them for life. At the time they didn’t know what this diagnosis would mean for them, but immediately their plans of both being working parents and their child being in daycare no longer seemed like a practical solution.
Unfortunately a life shock such as this is an all too common occurrence and it’s why I push people to tidy up their life as they move through it instead of leaving things undone, such as a student loan, such as a mortgage with no end date. Those things left unfinished compound over time and impact your future decision making. No doubt about it at all.
They made the decision that Frank, who she said was proving to be an exceptional Dad would stay-at-home and Nic would return to work full time, to a job that would require quite a bit of travel for work. Their life revolved around an unwell child with hospital visits and constant worry. The reason for her returning was that she had a greater earning potential and even with trips away, more manageable work hours. So, despite their original plans to both work, they officially became a single income family.
Her employer was also incredibly understanding and supportive, something she will be forever grateful for. She juggled her maternity leave and her annual leave which gave her a total of almost six months off work that she was paid for.
Nic is a goal orientated person - give me a goal and I’ll achive it she said - so, true to her word, she had her perfectly healthy second child just a fortnight before her 30th birthday in 2011. Now, Dad was super busy at home with 2 little kids. She took five months off and then returned to full time work, giving her the income to just keep on top of the bills they had coming in.
Her career was going well, and her pay had risen to about $60,000 but they were feeling squeezed. In 2011 interest rates were still high and again they fixed the mortgage for 2 years at a slightly lower rate but again, interest only.
She became increasingly aware that times were becoming much financially tougher for their expanding family. I don’t think the world had changed, they had. A lot of pressure was going on her income and when he could her partner did odd jobs here and there to earn extra money to keep them afloat. They had no savings and were living pay cheque to pay cheque.
When you think about it this was no different to how she had lived her entire life, its just that this time the stakes were getting higher and more people were depending on Nic. It wasnt just her that she had to worry about anymore. And her picking up more work was just not an option, there were not enough hours in the day.
But like a frog in water that is slowly reaching a boil, they soldiered on. Her student loan balance was slowly going down due to those 10% deductions from her salary. But that 10% of her income would have been kinda handy to take home at this stage in their lives, something she never could have considered way back when she first signed up to it. Still, the spending of the entire pay cheque never let up and the bonuses that arrived once a year were spent on ongoing house renovations.
And on they stumbled.
Enter, Nic said, the bad financial decision of hire purchase, aka the $10,000 leather sofa debacle. This is her greatest financial flop she said. And it was a doozy. She badly wanted a $10,000 leather sofa, but she couldn’t afford the $10,000 price tag. But Q Card, a modern mechanism for daylight robbery and the soothing justification for many a dumb purchase, said – yes you can afford it Nic.
To put this in context, she was earning $60,000 gross, or before tax was deducted, and wanted to spend $10,000 of her after tax income on a sofa. Utter madness.
She signed up to a three year interest free term, plus a $45 annual account fee. She thought, this is easy, I’ll pay it off in time. But when push came to shove it was not that easy at all to find the money each month to make the $280 payments. She did get it paid off a whisker within the three year term – but only just.
Although the sofa was really comfortable, this debt stung and she said it was a stupid debt that hung over her for three long years. Now that sofa lasted many years, it was ripped to shreds and the middle had sagged so much it touched the ground. Now gunshy, she replaced it with a $300 used one she found on Facebook marketplace. This leather look sofa is also peeling and falling apart at the seams, but it’s doing the job, and she didn’t entertain the thought of going back into debt for three years to replace it. She said that while these sofas have taught her a lesson in why you should not borrow money for a sofa, she also got, she said, a good lesson in quality. A better quality replacement has finally been ordered and this time she is paying cash.
She reflected on where all the money she earned went to over the years.
She said that as a family they traveled, mostly domestically, at least a couple of times a year. It is important to them that their children experience our own lovely back yard. While on these trips there was no expense spared: staying in hotels with pools, eating good food, and doing all the activities that they wanted.
Plus, a whole lot of money was just frittered away on various vices and interests.
She said that the TAB also owes her a fair bit of coin as they both love a good day on the punt. They enjoy horses and sports events and these sports are, she said, made way more exciting with a bet on them. This is still something they dabble in, but each of them have a limited amount of spending money to do it and when it’s gone, it’s over. I asked if they have ever made a decent return on their betting and she said the cold honest truth was that although they have had some great collects over the years, the reality is the TAB has done far better out of the deal. Which should not be a surprise to anyone listening.
While frittering away the pennies, they have tried to make savings where they could.
Three times over the years they have shopped around for better banking deals and interest rates, making use of cash backs where they can. They engaged one mortgage broker, who wasn’t worth the fee they charged she said, so have since done it themselves. This has grossed them around $6,000 in cash backs, they lost a little paying lawyers fees for the transaction. They have changed banks too. They started out with BNZ, moved to ANZ and are now back to BNZ.
To me it seems like a tonne of work for $2,000 a pop and while she said it is niggly to change, she deems it worth the effort. My observation is that when people re-jig their mortgage it gives them the feeling of having done something positive for themselves, taken a bit of control, but in my view behavioural changes, such as reducing outgoings in the home (by which I mean, stopping shopping so much), or an increase in the monthly mortgage payment would far outweigh the $6,000 win.
They do use credit cards, but not too much, just for a few online purchases and when they make one, they immediately pay it back. It’s got a credit limit of just $500. I hear of a lot of people doing it this way, which don’t get me wrong, paying off a credit card in full is the only way to have one. But in a case like this, a debit card does the same thing, with far less hassle and no annual card fee. The points you receive, particularly if you are a lower spender and not worth the hassle either in the majority of cases.
Still not getting a jump start on saving and investing a little of each pay cheque for future use meant that in the past they have twice extended their mortgage to pay for things. On one occasion they increased their mortgage debt by $25,000 to pay for some house renovations. The second time they borrowed a further $25,000 to pay for a surgery for Nic.
She now questions whether each of these were good decisions and decided that yes, they were. Justifying it due to the fact that they increased the value of their home, and that she improved her health.
But, just to pay devils advocate, what if they had instead had the thought to save up and pay cash for these things instead? Could they have done it? When your default is always to borrow money to get the things you want, no, at that time, they couldn’t have done it. These days it’s a different story though and I’m working my way towards that.
And what of her student loan. She used some colourful language to tell me how she felt about it.
Now, I particularly want future students and students recently graduated to take note of what she had to say about it.
She said that her student loan sat like a ball and chain around her ankle for years. It took her 17 years to pay it off once she finished her study. She said that she regretted that thing so much because it took 10% of every single paycheque she earned, meaning that was less money that she could take home to her partner and children. And now, it’s even worse because in 2013 compulsory deductions were raised to 12%. She said that in hindsight she should have used the student allowance and scholarship money to avoid taking on debt. She should have paid up front, as best she could, for her accomodation costs and course related costs instead of borrowing the money. Borrowing money should have been her last resort, not her first. She has a lot of regrets about that student debt and the fact that it siphoned money out of her life for 17 years.
She remembered at about age 25 being feeling so frustrated as she watched her friends who had gone straight into local industry right out of school earning decent wages, buying a house, paying it off and were on a great path. Instead, Nic had gotten an education, none of which she chose to pay for up front and then entered the workforce earning half of what they were, paying that money back week after week, and no asset to show for those weekly payments.
She said that the fact the buck stopped with her and that she could have been so much better off didn’t factor into her indignation at her situation. The choices you make have consequences. It has only been in recent years that the education she received has advanced her career and the income she makes. Now she is pulling ahead, which is why it is so very crucial in my opinion that she makes far better choices from here on in.
Comparing herself with others who didn’t take that tertiary path has relaxed her thinking about what might be right for her two tamariki when they finish school. She said that she can now see that education comes with a big cost, and getting a secure job straight out of school and being careful with the money you make can also get you to exactly the same financial spot as someone with an education!
Her turning point was the realization that it’s not how much you make, its what you do with it that matters so much.
When they transferred their mortgage to ANZ the bank also advised Nic to join KiwiSaver, using a growth fund, which thankfully she did. Their advice coincided with a 4% payrise at work, so for some reason it triggered in her mind that she could afford it. So from then on she has contributed 3%, which her employer matches.
This is where the knowledge just quiety starts to build for Nic. She took the time to run some scenarios where she increases the percentage she contributes, therefore greatly increasing her nest egg at 65. For now she is keeping her contribution at 3%, but at least now she knows the math. She has since done some research on the fund itself and switched away from ANZ to a Fisher Funds Growth KiwiSaver fund. And now, that simple choice she made all those years ago to join KiwiSaver, a choice where she priotised investing over spending for one of the first times in her life, she has a balance of about $70,000. To see this is hugely motivating for Nic.
At the same time she opened up an investment account with Fisher Funds for both of their children, and she is slowly adding to it, and their balances are sitting at about $600 each. Soon her partner will also begin to contribute monthly to these investments and they hope to build their combined $300 monthly investment up to $10,000 per child by 2026.
She said that in the past she had toyed with the idea of KiwiSaver for them, but in the end decided she wanted this money to be accessible to them. However more recently she has decided that she will join them up to KiwiSaver purely because experience has taught her that if her account had been set up from the beginning, when she started her job, she would have just ticked the box to contribute from her wages. It would have been effortless and she would be much further ahead than she is now. I agree with her logic here.
One thing has led to another and in about 2020 she also began to get involved in share investing by joining Sharesies. Both Sharesies and crypto were the in thing, but watching friends make big money and lose big money on crypto made her see it for what it was, a really risky way to invest. And Nic, despite living her own financial life on the edge tells me she is not a fan of risk. She said that since that time she has dabbled in investing and has a balance of about $2,000.
She has signed up both of her children and they invest half of their weekly pocket money, which is about $5, in their Sharesies accounts. They also invest part of any money they make doing odd jobs. Nic said it is their choice what they invest in and the only rule is that they are not allowed to sell. This rule was established after one child saw the value of their shares drop and sold out, turning a paper loss into losing real money. Each child has about $1,000 invested now.
I too encourage my daughter to invest 50% of any money earned and all of that money goes into buying a single large ETF fund. That’s it. I have encouraged her to create a habit that she won’t ever stop. It seems to be working. By encouraging her own children to set aside a portion of every single pay cheque they receive - from day one - Nic has stopped them repeating her habit of spending everything they earn. I can’t express how huge a decision to create a simple habit is. Living pay cheque to pay cheque ends with her.
We talked about a few other things she has going on such as insurance cover.
They carry house, car (for their one private vehicle), boat, contents, life and for her, as the primary income earner disability and impairment insurance. They have used a broker for the last three years and review their insurances annually, tweaking as needed.
They keep an emergency fund of $10,000. But they don’t use sinking funds for medical needs, pet bills etc, they anticipate that the emergency fund would be called on for these, in which case they might find it to be a little light at $10,000. Particularly given the fact that she said she would spend whatever needed spending to keep a pet alive.
She also finds comfort in the fact that her employer offers a redundancy package if they were to ever disestablish her job. It would amount to about $50,000 and she said that oddly she finds comfort in knowing it is there. But let’s be honest she said, she loves working where she does and would be devastated if it happened!
So, I think we are pretty caught up on the back story of Nic.
Learning about Nic turned up a relatively typical story of a family wandering along through life. Never thinking too far ahead financially, and although they hit some bumps in the road, they found their way through and kept on going. They were managing to keep on top of mortgage payments, helped by her salary increasing gently over time. Nothing too drastic ever happened, no part of their monetary system all out failed, so nothing to make them think that there was really anything worth fixing or changing.
If they were to look around them, I wouldn’t have been surprised to hear that everyone else thought they were pretty normal too.
A turning point came when she read the book The Barefoot Investor written by Australian Scott Pape. It offered a different perspective on money and it prompted Nic to begin to look much more closely at her spending and earning and make some changes. It took her on a journey of research around the average cost of living in NZ. She worked out what a family of 2 adults, 2 kids, 2 dogs and a cat typically spent a week on groceries in NZ and she tried to reduce her spending down to that level. She failed miserably.
As their household income had increased they had become accustomed to good food, expensive food and buying what she wanted when she wanted it, price be damned. Nic herself explained that she used to think nothing of spending $500 on groceries each week, and throwing a third of it away at the end of the week. That was entirely normal to her.
She created her first budgets. And by creating a budget, over time they did manage to reign this in, now spending about $350 a week.
Now that she pays attention to what they spend and what they eat she has freed up about $150 a week, or a massive $7,800 a year that can be redistributed to her mortgage paydown. She had some new information coming into her home about what other people were doing and it made her reassess their own situation.
She could click and collect her groceries, but she takes cash with her and has been doing so for about a year. This stops her overspending, when the cash is gone, that is it. But, her weekly spend came with a disclaimer she said. They have a freezer full of beef and lamb, meat that they have raised themselves and that offsets costs at the supermarket. She said that the amount they spend is still too high and mildly embarrassing.
What I would say is that I’m delighted that they are paying attention.
The other thing that I think many people in Aotearoa can relate to is that when money is not an issue because you have such a high income, which I’ll come to shortly, it’s very easy not to watch where it goes and just blow the lot, knowing that you will get paid again soon, or knowing the bank will keep lending you more because of your high income. Now, I know there are a lot of people struggling financially here in New Zealand, some simply don’t make enough money to cover their living costs. But I also know a lot who are on high incomes compared to others yet feel they are struggling. This comes down to where they are choosing to spend all of their money. They could make cuts, but have simply gotten used to buying everything they do and couldn’t possibly consider going without.
Working out what they spent on food was a fantastic first step for Nic and it has had flow on effects, prompting Nic to create a family budget where she began to track the money coming in and leaving their household. This ‘taking notice’ has made them smarter about where they spend their money and much more accountable for the money they do spend.
Nic has come to spend hours working on her spreadsheet and has come to love it. Nic is the classic case of someone finding out about a bit of new information and going all in, developing systems and processes that work for her. For example she found that withdrawing physical cash is the easiet way to keep track of what they spend on groceries. When they shop, they leave their bank card at home, that way you simply can’t overspend. It is drastic, yet effective.
Not only were they spending a lot on groceries, but they also had what she called “our ridiculous eating out habit”, eating out a few times a week. So, not only did they used to spend $500 a week on groceries, they also ate out a few times a week on top of that. Now, I’ve watched enough episodes of Eat Well For Less on TV to know that food costs explode when you do this, So, Nic and her whānau have reduced what they spend at the supermarket and they have cut back to eating out once a fortnight, reducing their overall spending by thousands a year.
She also gets out $100 a week for family play money and it is fun to know that they can plan to have a good time each week, but when the money is spent, thats it until next week. They have a variety of envelopes with money in them for various things. So, if you need fuel, go to the petrol envelope and take the money out. When it’s empty, you are walking until the envelope is refilled next week. It’s drastic, when you have been on autopilot for so long, you need something like this to reset your spending.
She has also implemented a system where the day after she is paid, which is the same date every month, every single bill is paid in full. So, there is a flurry of activity once a month. She rang every supplier and set the same pay date for each one, it took a bit of work to do this, but it was worth it she said.
So, at the end of 2020 she said they were sitting pretty due in large part to having started to pay attention. They had been more aggressive with their mortgage and had it down to around $100,000, the house renovation was complete, and she was earning what she considered to be great money, $150,000 a year. They were planning ahead and saving up for things in advance, instead of redrawing on their mortgage.
The sofa incident had taught them a lesson and they had used any work bonuses she received to save up and pay cash for renovations. For carpet, a kitchen refresh, gas hot water, a used car, external paint, aluminum windows, re wallpapering, internal garage conversion, minor surgery, AND a holiday to Australia.
Two things happened that were major changes for them. She moved into a new position at work with a lot more pressure and responsibility, managing a large team, and with that came a pay rise up to $193,000.
I just wanted to focus on her pay rate for a moment. There was a point in her career where she realised she was being paid less than the men doing the same job as her. It was straight up sexism. So she was vocal with her employer about having this evened up, telling them “I know what the men I work with earn and you should do right by me”. And they did, at one point raising her pay by $30,000 to match. She sees this as setting the scene for the next woman coming through the ranks. We need wahine like this to advocate for others.
The second change was that out of the blue some friends offered to sell Nic and her partner their family home. Even though the finish line of their own mortgage was now well in sight, the temptation to move was huge. A bigger home, once again one in need of work, a larger section, a nicer area.
They haggled a price of $530,000. She rang the bank and within 15 minutes had preapproval up to a lending limit of $550,000. Why the extra $20,000. For DIY, of course.
They spat and shook on the deal with their friends then and there. Their friends received payment in full, but would remain living in the house, paying a low-end rent until such time as their new home was ready for them to move into in about three months time.
And that my friends is how you immediately forget your plans to become debt free and instead, get deeper into debt. Even if you think they are not, the best laid plans are generally always subject to change. It’s easy to fall back into old patterns.
They now had two houses and two mortages.
Until their friends had an exact move out date, Nic and her partner couldn’t sell their own home. They didn’t want to sell up and try to rent with pets as they didn’t know how long they needed to rent for. But the housing market was booming, their new home would be vacant soon enough, so they felt pretty safe. What it also meant was that they could never rely on fixing in mortgages for long periods of time as the break fees were unpredictable.
Plans change. Vague plans are subject to change even more. They finally listed their first home for sale in March of 2022 at a time when the housing market she said, was falling. When they got a contract on their home, it was subject to another house sale and the offer they had accepted was well below what they could have got had they sold in the hot market.
Given the default for many Kiwis is to buy a rental property, and they do this simply by retaining the home they move out of, and given the fact that for a time they had tenants, so were rental property owners by default, we talked about whether this was ever a long term option for them, to keep both houses. They did have fantastic tenants all lined up had the sale fallen through on their original home, but in all honesty, the thought of people not loving and caring for their property as well as they did was not something they could bear watching. She did run some numbers and thought that after expenses they could have cleared just $16,000 a year, which is a poor return from a large investment, plus one that has many many outgoings. The changes to tax deductibility on rental property made it less attractive as well. Also the math on reducing their mortgage on their new home in a period of sky rocketing mortgage interest rates really played on her mind. A lot. To her it felt to risky to hold both homes.
A staggering 72 weeks after they bought their second house, in August of 2022 their friends moved out, but with the sale of their own home not yet completed, Nic now had two houses and no rental income coming in to offset the costs they were incurring. Yet, they struggled on. With the house empty, they set about a renovation. Of course! A complete repaint internally, new carpet, new hard flooring and a hundred trips to the dump to tidy up the section!
Her high salary helped and they never went hungry, but this, Nic said, was a slightly stressful time and they were topping up bank accounts left right and centre to keep on top of their now double mortgage payments. But given they were doing a big renovation and money was tight, where was it coming from I wondered? Because her Mum knew their home would sell soon, she lent them the money for some of the renovations, which was a god send. It meant they could complete the renovations before moving in.
I see all this as one step forward, two steps back. One decision they made forced another thing to happen and then they reach that point of being so far in, that they think they can’t back out.
Finally at the end of October, in 2022 the house that they paid $145,000 for in 2007 sold for $510,000. A $365,000 increase in 15 years, or an appreciation in value of $24,333 a year. However, let us not forget that they paid interest only for four years and still had a mortgage of about $100,000 to pay back when they sold it. Plus they poured money and time into renovations during the time they owned it. And they had to pay her Mum back too. It is far too simplistic to look and buy and sell prices.
They now have their lending spread over two mortgages on one property. When we spoke in late 2022 they had $49,000 4.89% until March 2023, paying $1,500 per month. Target payoff date is 2026. The second mortgage is about $210,000 at 4.14% until October 2023 with a $5,000 monthly payment, also targeted to be paid off by 2026.
So, two very short terms that will instantly jump to higher rates once they mature. If they can set extra money aside in the meantime, that will allow them to make extra lump sum payments at the time of renewal.
Their new house that they purchased for $530,000 now has an estimated value of $850,000. Even if you deduct interest they are paying and the significant repairs they have done, which I don't know the value of, this is a huge gain in a short period of time.
With all this change going on, they also upgraded both their boat and their family car.
Two steps forwar, one step back.
Let’s start with the car. They had a car that they paid cash for but Nic’s heart became set on a new $48,000 SUV that they would need to borrow money for to buy. It was pretty easy to justify the expense.
A) she wanted it and
B) her husband could use it for the business that he had set up.
Their is no easy way to explain all this away except to say that it’s simply a case of lifestyle inflation and keeping up with the Joneses. Income goes up, wants and desires increase in line with it. Thankfully, apparently one of my podcast episodes was well timed and hearing the story of someone else explaining their financial life talked her out of the purchase. They instead purchased a used but meticulously maintained SUV for $19,000 cash.
The boat. Well. She said that she couldn’t really explain the purchase of this huge $63,000 depreciating asset, but she gave it a good try, other than to say that her partner has done an amazing job in all aspects of life and fishing is a passion they both enjoy. In fact she said that fishing is good for both their souls and their relationship and one day, if they manage to retire, they plan on doing a lot more of it.
When they spat and shook on buying their friends house all those years ago they thought their own home would sell for about $400,000. Nic had said to her partner at that time, that anything above that amount, he could put towards a boat. They agreed he could spend $80,000 max.
Talk about gold fever.
So, when the house sold for $110,000 more than they expected, the decision was already made to buy the boat, and if anything, he did well and came in well under the mark at $63,000. Which was a silver lining she said. Another silver lining was that the house they bought for $530,000 is now valued at $850,000 and that this value does not take into account renovations, of which they have done plenty.
She said, this boat will be our boat until the day we die. Which, I’m giving Nic a hard time here, but I know she can take it, is just a lie we tell ourselves to justify a purchase.
So, while the whole process hurt cashflow at the time, they have made a really healthy on paper equity gain overall. But they have bought some really expsensive stuff too.
In more good news for Nic, her salary was recently bumped up to $233,000 and she said that her potential to earn further bonuses is very achievable. The opportunity sounds there for the taking.
Now I want to pause here for a quick explanation before I move on. What is the point of sharing Nics story because I’m not going to lie to you, I was frustrated as I was hearing it. Yes, she started with nothing, had few financial skills, got herself into debt, but over time earned enough income to buy whatever she wanted. Sounds great. But, that is NOT the story.
Anyone who sets their mind to it can make a lot of money. You can. I can.
In my mind the story is not increasing your income each year, upgrading housing, building up equity in a home, upgrading cars and boats along the way, its what happens to you if the music stops. If I was to finish this episode right now, Nic and her family still have a mortgage, and they have very few assets other than a house and small KiwiSaver fund. They also own a boat and car, but both of those go down in value over time, not up. All of their assets are illiquid.
If you tally up her income of $233,000, plus her variable bonuses, plus income that Frank is earning, their household income (not that they share it all), is about $300,000 annually. So, they can easily keep on borrowing money to buy stuff, because they have the income to pay it back.
Inside my mind was the chant “Nic, please tell me you are going to be better with your money soon”. And that she stops taking two steps forward and one step backwards.
And finally, I’m delighted to move on and let you see how the situation is unfolding now.
As soon as she told me their combined income, and their debt levels I could see massive potential for a strong financial future that she is still trying to see. But, I’ve been doing this awhile, and Nic is still executing the u-turn moving away from borrowing money to creating her own wealth. Brick by brick she is building up a stronger foundation.
This new found love of budgeting means that their household budgets are written down and set and they are aggressive in debt reduction, with $6,500 a month going to their mortgage. Which by my calculations is about half of her after tax take home pay.
She has now created other money goals in various bank accounts, called sinking funds:
For the kid’s futures - by 2026 she plans to have saved $10,000 into each of her childrens Fisher funds investments.
For their savings targets such as a big overseas holiday they want to take before their kids leave home. They are also saving up for some smaller house renovations that they will pay cash for, and at the time we spoke, they were saving for Christmas.
By 2026 she said she will have her KiwiSaver balance over $100,000.
Their emergency fund is a work in progress. She likes the balance to be maintained at $10,000 but it is currently sitting at about half that as they have currently loaned money to family with a six month pay back term. There is another small loan of $350 out there, but they are comfortable with the fact that this may never be paid back, so really, it was a generous gift in a time of need. This goes back to what I was saying earlier, your emergency fund needs to be bigger if you know your outgoings have the potential to be bigger.
There was one place her money was going that she has zero regrets about. She said that she is a firm believer that if you have something to give, then you should, whether that be time, money, mentorship, experience or a friendly ear. She said that she is always challenging and encouraging friends to share what they have with others. From a financial perspective she gives about $4,000 a year and even when her income was far lower, she still gave. She said that she hurts for and fights for the underdog and seeing people struggle is hard for her. Poverty concerns her and people in lower socio-economic situations hurt her heart.
So she gives. Donating to Womans Refuge, the Heart Foundation, the Rescue Helicopter, and Starship Hospital to name a few. She also volunteers and fundraises for organisations close to her heart. She cooks and gives away meals, she donates to food banks, she has been known to pay for other kids camp fees so the kids don’t miss out and their family doesn’t struggle. She will pay money off people’s accounts at the doctors, pay for medical appointments and pay for petrol for the parents to get their tamariki to the appointment. If there is an appeal going and she hears about it, you can guarantee she wants to support it.
She will also lend family money. Most pay it back, and the others are good for it over time. Nic thinks it is far more important to know that their nieces and nephews are fed, warm, have power and are clothed. Plus, she really understands that asking for money is hard and she is glad they feel comfortable asking her for it.
I applaud her giving nature and the fact that she is trying to use her situation to make Aotearoa a better place. Yes it has slowed down her own financial progress and dreams, but that does not bother her one single bit. She likes to think that if her luck changed and she was in a tight spot, people would be there for her too. That is what the world needs and I think that she will find that as she turns the corner on her own finances she will be able to be even more generous.
With two steps forward, there is always a small step back because it’s very hard to change the habits of a lifetime. She said a brand new kitchen would be nice eventually, but they will only tackle that if they decide to sell up or win Lotto. Or maybe when we are debt free and can pay cash. If you ever want the kitchen Nic, my advice is go go with your plan B. Become debt free, save up and pay cash for it. And invest the money you would have spent on Lotto instead.
She is now more forward thinking, deciding that she wants to retire at 56 if she can. She has been with her current company for 20 years and is happy to stay there if they will have her. It was really nice to hear that she adores her job. But instead of hoping for retirement at 56 to happen, like hoping to win Lotto, she is finally planning for it to happen. That’s a massive difference. She estimates that although she won’t be able to access it, she would have about $315,000 in her KiwiSaver by then, which would continue to grow over time. Why the age of 56? She knows of a couple of people who retired then and it seemed to treat them well.
Her plan is to be mortgage free by the end of 2026 at the latest, when she is 46. Receiving bonuses at work could speed this up, but they are not a given. Keeping her spending in check and on track can be a given though, but its down to her to stick to the promises she has made herself.
She said that the thought of being mortgage free and having that freed up $6,500 monthly payment ready to invest and save excites and motivates her. Each time she waivers, I would encourage her to think about just how flush with cash she will be when she is debt free.
So, now that she is working her way towards a better future, how is she teaching her own two children about pūtea? She loves a yarn (don’t I know it), kōrero is important. Every Sunday is roast night. And the kids will share, vent, and talk over dinner. They know they have her and Franks ear, they are all well rested and they are free to talk about everything and anything as they plan the week ahead. She also walks with her kids, another fantastic opportunity to chat.
They speak honestly and openly about money at home and she has used the mistakes and bad choices she has made to educate them. Although she feels mildly obsessed with setting her kids up for success and providing for them to get them started her hope is that if they can manage to avoid every trap she fell for and they keep building upon the good habits they are already showing, they probably won’t need a cent from Mum and Dad. She values all the support her Mum gave her over the years, even though she never had much money, she was always there for Nic and her brother. So, Nic is embracing the best bits of her upbringing, adding some new knowledge, which includes actively engaging her kids in saving and investing and doing her best to raise some great kids.
Nic is also mulling over how she could teach others to avoid the mistakes she thinks she made. She imagines where she would be today if instead of spending every single paycheque down to it’s last cent, and then borrowing money on top of that, she had saved some instead. Her kids won’t have this same regret, she is teaching them, as I have with my own daughter to by all means spend money, but to always set a portion aside for future use. Nics young teenage kids are now asking for jobs to do, such as painting the fence. Because its a big job and she doubted their ability to stick at it, she even incentivised them with a ‘completion bonus’ of lunch at a cafe if they got it done. She never thought they would stay on a paint brush for longer than 20 minutes. But they did. And then, they asked for their earnings to go into the bank. I had a friend over the other day, an ex bank manager and he is adamant that if you can encourage and lock in these types of behaviours early, then they become good financial habits for good.
For her own kids, even at this young age they talk about their options once they finish school, which may or may not include a tertiary education. She doesn’t mind what they do, just that they do what they love, you have to enjoy what you do. And if they do go onto further education the family intention is that they will NOT take out loans, instead it will be collective of Nic and Frank helping, alongside the kids chipping in as much as they possibly can too.
Another good change is that since listening to these podcasts she has become a lot more open with her friends about money and if she was being honest, a bit cockier in challenging them about some things they do, or at least, challenging them to think differently. She has a small and close circle of friends and all of them know each other’s financial decisions and are happy to discuss money. This doesnt’ mean that each of them are all over this stuff, but the conversation has absolutely started and I think this is really important that we get a peek at what other people are doing so that we can change, or not, what we are doing.
Given I was just speaking with Nic, I asked how her and her partner handled money as a couple now. For many years he was a full time parent but when time allowed as the kids got a bit older he worked some casual jobs here and there. Any money he earned was his to spend, but if they were a little short that month, he would chip in.
There was a time where he tried returning to full time work, but the wheels of the whānau started to wobble and it became just too hard for them to both juggle full time jobs and children, so he returned to casual work and took on a job working a maximum of 20 hours per week for a local employer. More recently he moved away from that and has started his own business, working about 25 hours a week in total and he has been able to set his rates at a level that sees him making money. Again, she said, all that money is his but gone are the days of her needing any of it to prop up the family finances.
I found this odd. Why does she work and share her money, yet when he works, it is his money?
She said that Frank has many incredible attributes but handling money is not one of them.
This is where her new journey with money deviates down a different path to his. She said of his financial literacy, he is like she used to be, but a thousand times worse. He is neither driven nor bothered by money she said. He either has some, or he doesn’t. And if he has some, it’s spent. He has no desire to think about the future and in fact he still has a student loan of an unknown amount, she guessed at $6,000 and because she said he literally forced him to do so, he has finally signed up to KiwiSaver with a balance of maybe $6,000.
He sounds like a highly skilled tradesman that people want to work with and for, but to hear that someone with this lack of awareness around money is going into business is quite concerning. Nic will be doing his book keeping, but still, when you hear of small businesses failing, lack of cash flow, running out of money, running up bills, neglecting to pay tax. He runs the risk of all of this. If you pay no attention to your own money that you earn via a PAYE job, why would you pay attention to business money?
It is not my right to be concerned about people when they are clearly not concerned themselves. But the analogy that came to mind was the two of them in a dingy out at sea where Nic is frantically bailing out the water and he was on the other side of the boat drilling a hole and letting it back in.
She told me not to worry, as although she handles all of their, or her, finances, she has everything documented and written down for him with VERY clear instructions should she get hit by a bus. Unless those instructions come with a new partner to ‘make’ him follow them, I just don’t think its going to work out the way she details in her plan.
So, when she talks of retiring at 56, that is her plan, for herself. Because he appears to not have one she said she has jokingly made it clear that at the rate he is saving, he will need to work until he’s 78 to support himself. There is no shared goal here and to me that is a red flag. It gave me a bit of hope when she said that more lately she has noticed a shift and a change in him and what he is doing with his money. Their kids have been asking him questions about his money and it seems to have prompted him to start contributing from his income into the kids savings accounts, about $400 a month. Which is a step in the direction I guess, but I’d love to see him and Nic come around the table together for a more shared financial future.
I’ve heard of this split in a couple many times, where one cares deeply and the other couldn’t care less and in a way Nic hinted at how the less interested spouse can be entirely content with the status quo.
She said that “I do deep down inside know he doesn’t really need to worry as he knows that there is no way in hell that she will let them fail and I will always provide and to date we have managed”. She would like him to at least be slightly interested but after 20 years of life together she also knows this is a big ask. Their different levels of enthusiasm for money doesn’t stop her rabbiting on at him constantly and who knows, she said, one day he might just hear her!!!
Nic had a few resources to share with us.
The book by Frances Cook Tales from a Financial Hot Mess, plus her podcast Cooking the Books.
The Barefoot Investor – Scott Pape
The book, A Real Girl’s Guide to Money – Effie Zahos - her Facebook profile says this book is for “every woman with a voice in her head saying “you earn a decent income, so why are you still broke”?
One Up Project
Anything that Mary Holm writes or says
Atomic Habits – James Clear - It teaches you to create long lasting habits, something she has always had a problem doing with money. But she has created a budget and has stuck to it. She keeps herself accountable by sharing it with her whānau.
She also had a few thoughts to share for young adults in their final years of school. University is just one of many good options. For her it piqued her intellectual curiosity and it taught her to speak, write and learn, but there are many excellent and different pathways in life. She would encourage people to contact the big plants and companies in their area and ask about the wide range of apprenticeships and jobs on offer. They will willingly speak with you because they are actively looking for staff and if you get in touch with them it saves them the job search. You get to go to work and are paid to train on the job. She said that in her industry the starting wage ranges from $26 - $32 an hour, depending on the shifts worked. If you have an interest in something, you can be specific. For example asking for a role where you get to work with people, work with numbers, or to train to be an electrician, driver or whatever.
Oh my goodnes, this is a long episode and I just hope that I’ve patched it all together into a logical story. I’m on the home straight now and I wanted to know what was Nics plan from here on.
They were so close to owning their first house, but then they deviated and upgraded. By upsizing their home, she saw huge potential for capital gains, he saw a lot of hard work. Plus, she was very honest when she explained that she was also materialistic, and she wanted the new house.
She then told me an outright lie, that this will be their last home, they won’t move again. “It isn't” and “they will” is my prediction. I was proved correct when in the next breath she pointed out their section is subdividable and that the house will be too big once their kids up and leave home. So in the back of their mind is the thought that they may downsize in the future.
This conversation is so typical of how Kiwis view housing. Its our home, its our sanctuary until someone offers us a tonne of money for it, or we find a better one somewhere else. I just hope that they have enough good habits now ingrained, such as aggressive debt paydown, paying into retirement funds, increasing their savings, paying cash for things that if and when the inevitable happens, and they want to move, they have all their bases covered and finally start to have assets that are greater than the sum of their house and vehicles.
Given Nic loves a good goal to aim for, she has that sheer will to achieve which will mean that if she does get the house paid off in full by 2026, when she is 46 years old she will be one step closer to retiring at the age of 56.
She thinks she has made every mistake you can make, which I don’t think she has, but she said that she also thinks she has recovered and discovered herself and a good money path that is setting her up for future success.
Her money journey got off to a slow start, full of questionable decisions, some good luck and some great times. And now she finds herself in the very fortunate position of earning an above average income, which up until recently she spent in its entirety. More recently she has realised she is in the position to be able to do smart things with a lot of money.
Her financial triumph is the evolution of her understanding of how pūtea works and the changes she has made to how she thinks about money. It is accepting what she did in the past is in the past, those past mistakes didn’t destroy her future, and deciding she gets to choose her own future. Her mantra now is “I’ve got this and I can do this”. Next time I speak with her I’d love to hear more of the word “we” as I think that is the part that still needs work. Two is greater than one, her and Frank both have different strengths and the combination of those strengths would over ride any weakness and make them a pretty formidable pair I believe.
New information on how to handle money better has made her cringe at past decisions made, such as ignoring her student loan and pretending it didn’t matter. She has never shied away from hard work, she had a great work ethic and earnt good money, but it did nothing of great benefit for her long term because she had no idea how to actually hold onto the money she earned it meant she would always have to just work harder and harder. She’s now working smarter. She has come a long way, but the journey is not over yet, but she said she has a plan now, something she never had before, she has her WHY and the HOW defined. She has the tools, and the knowledge. She now just requires the discipline, focus and drive to pull it all off!
A massive massive thank you to Nic for speaking to me. I get the feeling if you and I ever ended up in the same room with a bottle of wine, we would need to clear our diaries for a good 24 hours. We both have so much to say, and despite the length of this episode, I feel I only scratched the surface. But, I hope that I managed to tell your story as it stands so far. I’m looking forward to the updates.
